Young Hands
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Ossasepia



diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007629 - misclassification indeed.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 18:35:12 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-21#1007023 << Just realized I missed this question. Well, in our PM convo at the end of September I decided to pause my current study in diana_coman's school so as to gain an understanding of what, specifically, I would wish to gain from it. In my head I had lumped the penance posts under this set of study, though perhaps this was a misclassification
ericbot: Logged on 2019-10-21 13:57:58 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-09-14#1002548 - lobbes, what ever happened to/with this?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-14 15:05:59 lobbes: diana_coman: interesting. I will do this, ty
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007633 - is this the sort of fun that keeps you going or the sort that means you'll need a few days *after it* to be able to do anything useful again?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 18:47:29 whaack: diana_coman: I was just invited to go to Nicaragua next week from Thursday-Monday for a friend's birthday. (The same friend I was considering living with before) It looks like a++ fun, but it is quite a few days to give up. I am asking both for permission to go and guidance as to whether or not I should go.
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007641 - thank you trinque for stating this clearly for jfw ; he certainly has other things to do atm.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-26 23:36:56 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-26#1007554 << remember that it's an artifact, not a textbook. it's liable to teach you the wrong thing, possibly better off not touching it for now.
whaack: diana_coman: i admit i would need to take care to ensure it is the former and not the later
diana_coman: whaack: honestly, it sounds like you'd be way better off *without* that, esp since you aren't really lacking holidays otherwise; maybe meet the guys sometime in CR before/after that trip rather than sink those days in it.
whaack: diana_coman: alright i will not lack in seeing them, i see them multiple times a week in the surf.
diana_coman: whaack: cool then; and btw, didn't you promise some photos/post of that wonderful view from your place?
whaack: yes by EOD tomorrow latest!
diana_coman: heh, all right.
whaack: i'm going to go on a walk and grab some more photos, brb 30min
diana_coman: enjoy!
diana_coman: thimbronion: are you back from Hawaii?
thimbronion: diana_coman: I am back and will be available in roughly 2 hours.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them.
diana_coman: thimbronion: make that more like 4 hours or write it down and I'll read it around that time.
diana_coman: thimbronion: see that comment I left on your blog and maybe answer that there first.
thimbronion: diana_coman: ack
thimbronion: diana_coman: http://thimbron.com/2019/10/hawaii-communication/#comment-37 << answered and enlarged images
diana_coman: thimbronion: ugh; listen: 1. use feedbot and subscribe to your own blog's comments at least so you actually see them more timely + you'll figure out why there's no need to ping 2. pics on blog have a medium size that fits your theme + linked to bigger size (IF that exists, you don't just enlarge a low res image ffs) ; mpwp even does that for you, dunno how you managed to mess it up there so badly.
diana_coman: and you know, stop doing just the shape of things, there's a point to them and if you don't get the point, just doing the motions won't help any.
diana_coman: thimbronion: this even strikes me as quite similar to your communication issue, it's almost as if you somehow interact/see the world quite flat/missing some dimensions entirely
diana_coman: whaack: did you re-read those annotations of yours?
thimbronion: diana_coman: I discovered in Hawaii that image uploading is not working. I added img tags linked to images uploaded to another server.
diana_coman: thimbronion: just fix it, will you?
thimbronion: diana_coman: yes, I will.
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok I will use feedbot.
diana_coman: thimbronion: good; still: why use feedbot?
thimbronion: diana_coman: because it will notify me in irc so I don't have to check my rss reader.
diana_coman: thimbronion: so what?
thimbronion: diana_coman: That said I saw your comment immediately after you left it, but didn't have large enough time slot where I could focus enough to respond until now.
thimbronion: diana_coman: so that I can respond in a timely manner.
diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 13:05:07 thimbronion: diana_coman: I also intend to write my plan and review at that time, although I could use some direction as to what to discuss in them.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I don't know why this doesn't fit.
thimbronion: diana_coman: I will have to step away in about 10 minutes.
diana_coman: thimbronion: so try to figure it out, like a puzzle if nothing else; take your time too but don't just remain stuck at "don't know"; it's part of your problem.
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok I will spend some time to try to figure it out.
diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible.
thimbronion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007679 << diana_coman: are you referring to "direction" from here?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 16:46:06 diana_coman: thimbronion: this then doesn't fit as it is; why?
diana_coman: thimbronion: hm? I don't get what you are asking
thimbronion: diana_coman: when you say "direct," are you referring to me asking for direction on what to address in my plan and review?
diana_coman: thimbronion: the "to direct" in http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007685 ? it's more general really; essentially when you get stuck and/or just go through the motion of a requested thing without (apparently) knowing what and why was the point requested.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 16:55:27 diana_coman: thimbronion: understand that there is no possible way for me to direct you at such extremely basic level, it would be ~psychological equivalent of moving your limbs about like a puppet and for one thing I really don't think that's sane or helpful even if it were possible.
thimbronion: diana_coman: ok. I will think about this some more. I have to step away now.
diana_coman: all right.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??)
diana_coman: asciilifeform: hm, it worked just a minute ago so possibly it just takes a bit of time?
asciilifeform: possib
diana_coman: it depends on whether your rss announces immediately or not too; at any rate, I'll read in a bit.
asciilifeform: ty diana_coman . read when you have time.
whaack: diana_coman: yes. i wrote them once, then corrected. then i waited ~5 hours and corrected them again. when i did my last proofread, i was quite dismayed at how bad it started. i felt i needed to do perhaps another 2nd wait and proofread, but i decided against it for the interest of time
diana_coman: whaack: other than the proofread though - how useful do you think they'd be for someone new to V and/or to that code?
diana_coman: whaack: even more to the point - why did you annotate the code there?
whaack: whaack: i annotated the code to demonstrate i understood what it was doing. i think the stupid part of my annotations is that i have notes on "every function". so for the very simple functions my annotations are just noise
whaack: (err ^ quotes should not be there for "every function")
diana_coman: whaack: no, that's not really the problem; the issue starts from what you just said really: there always is a marked difference between saying/writing something to demonstrate your understanding vs saying/writing something to make a point/communicate some knowledge; and you need to take this step and move away from school-style to adult-style
diana_coman: whaack: yes, you are doing it because I ask it but there is a reason for which I asked for it and therefore there is a point to the task beyond demonstration of obeying the order, right?
whaack: diana_coman: of course
whaack: diana_coman: so if i understand correctly I need to structure the post with the idea in mind that the next person learning V has an easier time should they read my post, not just rewording the entire code (which is only going to make it more confusing)
diana_coman: whaack: not even that exactly, heh; remember causes vs purposes? what you say would be focusing on a purpose and as such, you can't quite deliver because... how exactly do you know what "the next person learning V" needs to have an easier time?
diana_coman: whaack: the thing is: the point of annotations are not to prove your understanding, no; the point of annotations are to illuminate that which is annotated, correct?
diana_coman: is*
whaack: diana_coman: yes
diana_coman: sorry for the messed up grammar there, it's been a long and weird day here.
diana_coman: whaack: so then that's your focus and measure at each step: does this annotation bring some more light on what this code does and how/why?
diana_coman: whaack: did you ever have the dubious pleasure of using windows help? (or similar)
whaack: diana_coman: i don't know what windows help is
diana_coman: whaack: happy you! lol; ok, let me fabricate an example then, 1 sec
whaack: diana_coman: that makes sense for the goal with annotating. i must admit i believe i do not fully grok the causes over purposes theme that is so often mentioned here
diana_coman: whaack: the clear dividing line there is time really; ie you have to base your decision on past or present, never on the future (because you can't possibly know it)
diana_coman: whaack: the windows-style help I had in mind makes free use of circular definitions in a nutshell; eg "enter your 10-digit hwoegt code" "what is a 10-digit hwoegt code?" "that is your code that has 10 digits and is hwoegt"
whaack: lol
diana_coman: hmrc.gov.uk excels in such help too but I really don't want to look atm.
whaack: is that like the paperclip guy?
diana_coman: whaack: pretty much,yes; the paperclip guy is an animated version of nonsense-delivery including circular definitions and the like, so yes.
diana_coman: whaack: but look that you have some good examples too in there e.g. note 11 goes in the right direction; possibly precisely because you were focusing on saying something there.
diana_coman: whaack: also note 9 is not-bad.
diana_coman: whaack: btw, 3 seems even wrong actually.
whaack takes a look
diana_coman: whaack: ah, no; it's fine, I just misread, sorry.
whaack: ok
diana_coman: whaack: so, would you be able to implement V now?
whaack: diana_coman: i don't see why not
diana_coman: so do it then.
whaack: diana_coman: okay i will make it #1 for next week
whaack: diana_coman: may i try to write it in CL?
diana_coman: whaack: did you read the causes vs purposes canonical ref?
diana_coman: whaack: why not, it's your V :)
whaack: diana_coman: i have read it but i will read it again
whaack: diana_coman: your point on time being the key factor sheds some light
whaack: diana_coman: as i received your message about time being the dividing line i had just finished typing " my understanding of causes over purposes is ~ when studying a phenomena, there is little to gain pondering the question for what purpose does this occur? but instead one should ponder what caused it to occur."
diana_coman: certainly; to start with, it can't possibly occur for a purpose anyway, how would that work
diana_coman: it might be that someone did some action with some purpose in mind, sure, but that still doesn't mean the action occured for that purpose; it still occured from some causes.
whaack: diana_coman: i guess i was thinking the point is to try to find those causes instead of guess the purpose in mind
whaack: diana_coman: but that might not be correct if you're studying the action because the purpose in mind is the cause of the action
diana_coman: whaack: well, aiming to find what goes on in people's minds is rather iffy anyway, not sure you can "find" with any certainty such a thing really.
whaack: diana_coman: right but that may be a separate problem from the causes vs purposes
whaack: diana_coman: back to our example of V. can't one say switching my annotations from being 'to show i understand Stan's code' to 'to illuminate the meaning of the code' is simply switching my purpose?
diana_coman: whaack: thoughts are reactions themselves, you know?
diana_coman: whaack: heh, one can say anything really
whaack: diana_coman: yes re thoughts being reactions
diana_coman: you don't swith the annotations, you switch the way you approach the task: the 2nd approach focuses on the existing code and its clarity and improves on that, it starts from "how can I make this clearer?"
diana_coman: you can however, pervert that into a purpose, sure; this is why I'm saying "one can say anything really"; it's possible to aim for whatever notion you may formulate as to "illuminated code" and so pursue that future-illumination, regardless of any causes.
jfw: asciilifeform, spyked: http://younghands.club/2019/10/27/jfw-review-week-of-oct-21-2019/#footnote_1_120 re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2019-10-27#1007694 (and my apologies, I should have said here when I noticed)
ossabot: Logged on 2019-10-27 17:04:29 asciilifeform: diana_coman: 2nd draft posted. (feedbot appears to be wedged??)
diana_coman: whaack: and nobody can give you a fool-proof statement of task as it were.
whaack: diana_coman: okay i believe i understand better. you referred to c vs p because i said " oh so my approach to the task is to make it easier for the next person who learns V" but that is making a wild guess of what will be helpful in the future
diana_coman: whaack: yes.
diana_coman: jfw: ah, so feedbot is actually down?
diana_coman: spyked: ?
jfw: ^ specifically sees eggog on loper-os
diana_coman: asciilifeform: do you have your rss messed up somehow/
whaack: diana_coman: ty. i have to eat so i may be slow to respond for a bit.
jfw likewise grabbing a bite then back to remaining posts
diana_coman: jfw: you know, it's actually enjoyable reading your review?
jfw: why thank you diana_coman, felt good to get it out
jfw: though I caught myself spinning for a sec on 'publish' button... "am I SURE sure sure?"
diana_coman: jfw: the one part that hasn't been mentioned much around here yet but I start thinking might be relevant to you: it's important to prioritize and to do *that* well.
diana_coman: jfw: heh; sure you're sure, what.
dorion: prioritize prioritization !
diana_coman: dorion: ha, you know that's anyway even more your task as a manager than his, right?
diana_coman: lolz
asciilifeform: diana_coman, jfw : i haven't made any changes to rss since last post
dorion: diana_coman yes, and failing that over the years caused me to pull both of us in here.
diana_coman: dorion: you'll have to explain to me tomorrow that pull because in the end between the two of you pulling/pushing one another, it's all as clear as mud who did what here.
asciilifeform: actually strike that : loox like my doublequotes fix somehow broke it ( i get a mysterious eggog when loading feed , and not presently equipped to debug )
diana_coman: but do finish first your post there, this can wait.
diana_coman: asciilifeform: ha!
dorion: diana_coman aok, will think about how to clarify the mud.
diana_coman: don't worry, I'll ask you questions until it's clear.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: i'ma have to cut the thing open to fix, and 0% chance of it happening today, been awake for 14+h already
diana_coman: asciilifeform: get some sleep better; I'm reading.
asciilifeform will be doing a bit moar numerics before may sleep , so if diana_coman has q's in next coupla hrs , will try to answer.
asciilifeform has also crate of 'dulaps' to unpack & test, but unlikely to today
diana_coman: asciilifeform: I'm at the end of a long and weird day so I might need another pass tomorrow (and that won't happen until evening anyway) so don't count on immediate feedback, sorry.
asciilifeform: diana_coman: makes sense, got it
diana_coman: "This document is doomed to be revised again. And probably yet again." - bwahahah; asciilifeform , I'll end up cribbing this for a set of quotes on younghands.club , lol.
whaack: fff looks like next week i may have to abandon the ship on the digitalocean
diana_coman: jfw: btw what does the f in there stand for?
jfw: diana_coman: back at kb, catching up. F is for Frederick.
diana_coman: thanks.
jfw: You have an Irena there too, right?
diana_coman: Irina, yes
diana_coman: it's the Romanian/Russian form; the English equivalent would be Irene
jfw: ah. Is Coman a Romanian name? Don't believe I've seen it often
diana_coman: well, Romanian surnames are anyway haphazard because they are rather recent; fwiw it's not the usual form (Popescu as in Mircea Popescu is one of the most common + more usual ending escu, yes)
diana_coman: traditionally nobody cared about surnames, it would always be literally, you are X of Y's (aka your father's ) and the usual question in villages goes exactly like that: whose are you?
jfw: so much like the origin of '-son' I gather
jfw: Anyway, these posts aren't gonna post themselves so I'd better hold my further curiosity for now.
diana_coman: certainly; and for that matter similar reason as to Russian patronymics, obviously.
diana_coman: jfw: heh, work well then.

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