Young Hands
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Ossasepia



feedbot: http://younghands.club/2020/02/10/jfw-review-week-of-3-feb-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- JFW review, week of 3 Feb 2020
feedbot: http://younghands.club/2020/02/10/jfw-plan-week-of-10-feb-2020/ << Young Hands Club -- JFW plan, week of 10 Feb 2020
jfw in after the late buzzer again. Even worked on them earlier in the day too, but I dunno, couldn't muster the urgency. Review seems on the superficial side too.
diana_coman: jfw: why is it *urgency* that you are looking for?
diana_coman: whaack: more importantly is whether it was time well spent, you know? how about you switch a bit those EOD to note each day something that went well and why, something that didn't go well and why, a (be it small) change you'll make going forward to increase the "went well" parts and decrease the others?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-09#1018139 - I could see it as BingoBoingo says, "both", but tbh I still think it's just misplaced dedication&investment really.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-09 22:07:59 billymg: at first i thought extremely dense, now suspect bored troll. sad either way i suppose
diana_coman: come to think of it, that would even fit both there too, heh.
diana_coman: yeah, seriously, why does ChanServ not like you, ave1 ?
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-09#1018133 - myeah, do that; lobbes , you asked for this standing meeting, don't you want/need it anymore or what?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-09 21:54:37 lobbes: http://logs.ericbenevides.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-09#1017968 << oy, I was out today during that time and neglected to let you know ahead of time. I'ma slap a big ass sticky note on my wall so I don't do this in the future
ericbot: Logged on 2020-02-09 19:17:37 diana_coman: lobbes: you around?
feedbot: http://ossasepia.com/2020/02/10/ossasepia-m/ << Ossa Sepia -- #ossasepia +m
whaack: diana_coman: I think the time was well spent. Refreshing advice given is necessary after 17 weeks and I uncovered some tasks that are simple yet important (mirroring the WOT) that I had forgotten about / missed.
whaack: diana_coman: The new EOD plan looks good.
whaack: diana_coman: I have a pile of dead tree to pick from for my next book. I can type up the list of all the titles or post a picture of the shelf. Currently I am considering Voltaire's Candide as translated by Donald Frame.
diana_coman: whaack: ha! but yes, Voltaire's Candide sounds good; just you know, for starters, be a bit more cautious esp when reading classics ie you don't know what you don't know and they are... how to put this, way older than you and still read for some reasons, you know?
whaack: diana_coman: noted, I am maybe blind to some of the meaning but I am not blind to the state of being blind. I can hear the whoosh as that meaning flies over my head.
diana_coman: whaack: what sort of thing did you do in school re literature anyway?
diana_coman: I have no idea what/how does US school do that (though I DO hope it...does have such lessons, huh)
whaack: diana_coman: Hm well I can take the time to try to really think back and create a list of the classes I took and the books I read. But I remember that we mostly read contemporary American literature: To Kill A Mocking Bird, Catcher in The Rye, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and Of Mice and Men are the first titles that come to mind.
diana_coman: whaack: beyond concrete meaning, the part to which you gave at least the impression of blindness is essentially the wider context (and as a consequence what and why and when is appropriate since yeah, that's what context does); hence my question above, trying to figure out what you are used to as approach and what you know of it anyway.
diana_coman: whaack: my question was more re *how* did you read them aka what does "literature class" mean in the US?
diana_coman: (or whatever it's called, I don't even know the name used).
diana_coman: jfw, dorion how's it going with those presentations?
diana_coman: whaack: basically: what did a usual assignment ask for? what discussion/what else was done in class? what do you consider/think you got from it all, if anything?
whaack: For middle school (up until your 13) they called the relevant class "English" class. Then in High School there is a series of classes that meet the "English class requirement" each having individual names: "AP English Literature" and "Creative Non-Fiction" are two course titles I remember
diana_coman: creative... non-fiction? I'm almost afraid to ask what that is, lol; what is it supposed to be?
jfw: diana_coman: I haven't started on presentation work yet today. Was about to get into responding to your points of this morning, then blog; but perhaps the blog should go later, knowing how I tend to slip.
whaack: diana_coman: Generally there's a book that the class reads together over the period of 2 weeks - 2 months. You're assigned to read to a certain page. Along the way writing assignments of all sorts are given. Also along the way the class sits in a circle and discusses some part of the book
whaack: Creative non-fiction was a class where we read auto biographies and memoirs and wrote our own
diana_coman: jfw: I'd say presentation gets higher priority for now so focus on that, even if you skip one day of blog; what you don't want is to end up doing the presentation on Wed for Thu; but do make sure you use the time effectively, the higher priority doesn't mean "can therefore drag feet longer on it", ahem.
jfw: quite right.
diana_coman: whaack: ah, the fiction is that memoirs and biographies are non-fiction! I see; lolz.
whaack: aha
diana_coman: but come to think of it, writing "own biography and memoir" in highschool, good god.
diana_coman: whaack: so the class consisted in ...reading in group? what?
diana_coman: meant: or what?
whaack: diana_coman: reading out loud in a circle was really common
diana_coman: bwahahaa
whaack: each kid gets a paragraph and rotating
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-10#1018148 - it's urgency that gets me moving on reviews at the last chance, but yeah, mustering something more internal would be much nicer.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-10 04:06:38 diana_coman: jfw: why is it *urgency* that you are looking for?
diana_coman: yes, uhm, that was primary to make sure everyone CAN read (7yo to 11yo) and at most one more year afterwards (for reading with proper intonation etc).
diana_coman: and uhm, that reading to a certain paragraph - does that mean they did NOT expect each kid to read the whole book??
whaack: well everyone is supposed to read along of course, it's not like they only had 1 book and passed it in a circle
diana_coman: whaack: no,no, I meant at home, lolz.
whaack: although i'm sure it'll come to that some day lol
diana_coman: neah, they'll get directly some shortened version; after all iirc they already did some "cleaned up" Twain and similar horrors.
diana_coman: uhm, I never really thought my highschool literature classes were any good (mainly because I was in heavy-CS class so kind of the weird one interested in literature too + fewer hours) but by comparison, I start to appreciate it more, lol.
whaack: There were some classes I thought were good, but of course was in no position to judge. Not all of them did the reading in circle shenanagins at least.
diana_coman: whaack: so what did you get out of those good classes?
diana_coman: whaack: by the sounds of it you should probably read up first on some literary theory and criticism but now ofc figuring out good English refs for it is a different matter.
diana_coman: hanbot_abroad: maybe you know ^ ?
BingoBoingo saw the circle thing persist into University. As class sizes shrank it turned into something called "The liberal arts arc"
BingoBoingo: Because... moving the chairs to close the circle was more work
whaack: diana_coman: Well, we read some books I enjoyed - some I recall : Wuthering Heights, The Count of Monte Cristo, Animal Farm, and Of Mice and Men. Then I improved my writing by writing/revising essays. What I enjoyed most though was the class discussions - specifically I enjoyed when the teacher put some topic to debate in the class and the students had to take a side and use evidence from the book.
whaack: aha "the liberal arts arc"
diana_coman: whaack: otoh I guess you really can't go wrong reading Aristotle's Poetics
whaack: diana_coman: should I put that on the top of my list?
diana_coman: whaack: myeah, but that still sounds so pedestrian essentially that you end up precisely with the sort of thing you wrote in that article of yours.
diana_coman: whaack: yeah, put it at the top and see how it goes.
whaack: k.
whaack: diana_coman: aha yeah I see that now, the topic written on the blackboard that sparked the article was "Is Odysseus really a good leader?"
diana_coman: ....
diana_coman: poor blackboard.
diana_coman: but seriously, that's "social indoctrination class, 1.0.1",what literature.
diana_coman: was odysseus a good commie too?
diana_coman: lolz.
whaack: ahaha
whaack: I had one teacher, Mr. Mott, who would assign a kid to lead the class discussion and then promptly fall asleep
whaack: he would wake from his slumber to make certain statements like, "what's the point? none of you kids get laid anyways, this play [A Streetcar Named Desire] has no meaning to you"
diana_coman: ahaha, he had a point!
whaack: yeah come to think of it he may have been the best teacher
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: lmao re circle; schools in RO still had those fixed 2-people benches so no chance of any circles, arcs and other such things, lol.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: but for that matter, can you help re http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-10#1018197 perhaps?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-10 16:25:45 diana_coman: whaack: by the sounds of it you should probably read up first on some literary theory and criticism but now ofc figuring out good English refs for it is a different matter.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The worst resource allocation I saw in US Universities was when I was repeatedly assigned to TA logic discussion sections in... An equipped Chemistry lab.
diana_coman: well, it can make for ...explosive illustrations of logical errors!
BingoBoingo: I did enjoy that every wall in the room was a chalkboard.
diana_coman: I'd say make best use of provided environment!
BingoBoingo thinking of texts that might be helpful for whaack
jfw: I've been enjoying this thread; hadn't heard of Aristotle's Poetics. Most I'm remembering of literary theory from high school was archetypes and heroic cycle
diana_coman: we had physics classes in the biology lab and biology classes in the chemistry lab and it didn't make any difference since neither actually used any lab material even when they matched (it happened at times!) the topic with the lab, so...
diana_coman: jfw: I was even thinking you might add to/enjoy it but ...you have a presentation to make!!
diana_coman: lolz
jfw: heh, yes, books will still be on shelf tomorrow.
diana_coman: jfw: aha; still, glad to hear you enjoyed the thread anyway.
jfw: diana_coman: on musl outreach, one question coming to mind about the initial approach is how to treat that "we"? Most likely they have no idea who I am, and no idea what they might've seen of tmsr
whaack: the STATE REQUIRED labs for biology were extra lulzy. How do you explain evolution to kids? You make put beads in one bowl and have 2 other empty bowls and you play a game where one kid has a chopstick and the other kid has a spoon and you compete to see who can put more beads into their bowl in 30 seconds and then you write a lab report comparing the spoons/chop sticks to birds' beaks.
diana_coman: jfw: so give concrete examples and links and that will clarify the "we" implicitly
diana_coman: starting with your gales (and the we there is you and dorion ), then e.g. ave1's work
diana_coman: jfw: you set the links in place and let them ask/figure out/remain stupid, what
diana_coman: you don't need to give them a full lecture on ~everything just to state your point.
jfw: trb "rotor" comes to mind too re musl usage. Ok, makes sense
diana_coman: so give rotor link too, sure; you don't even need to give the names for any of it, just say gales (link), rotor (link) and they can follow and see what we etc.
diana_coman: lobbes: awww, poor ericbot now is surely out of sync, sorry.
diana_coman: jfw: I suppose you can even avoid the "we" if you are iffy about it as such, and just state tmsr uses musl intensively (eg x,y,z with links) etc.
whaack: https://www.nysedregents.org/livingenvironment/818/lenv82018-ltexamw.pdf (The exam that follows said labs. Can't make it passed q 1 before the 'subtle' propaganda begins "Which human activity most directly causes a significant increase in the amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere?" )
diana_coman: jfw: you know, I don't mind it if you call it "pleasure reading" but it makes for a lot esp in your context there, lolz.
BingoBoingo: whaack diana_coman: Probably as close as any Enlish language text coming out of the US is going to come, https://www.uky.edu/~eushe2/Pajares/jcertain.html
jfw: diana_coman: a lot of what?
diana_coman: whaack: ah, this CO2 madness is now in full swing indeed; I have to look *very* carefully even at books for small kids
diana_coman: jfw: a lot of potential fun/laughter*
whaack: diana_coman: you're indoctrinating them!!11
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: OUR judgments concerning the worth of things, big or little, depend on the feelings the things arouse in us - say what??
diana_coman: whaack: I am? there might be some peanut gallery I'm not following there, lol.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: I guess I see your point. It's painful to read no matter where I try to excavate even a single sentence.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: It's rather an indictment of the space isn't it.
diana_coman: poor, poor words.
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/ossasepia/2020-02-10#1018169 - I've made progress, but not yet done. I've found myself doing more journaling than I had expected, which has slowed down the process of getting the presentation and other tasks done, but I'm okay with it because it seems like I'm processing unexamined habits that were previously holding me back.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-02-10 16:01:57 diana_coman: jfw, dorion how's it going with those presentations?
BingoBoingo: Aristotle's Poetics seems a better place to start than any work born in English
whaack: diana_coman: i'm mocking the 'anyone who deviates from the party's curriculum' is religious nut or w/e
diana_coman: dorion: that sounds like it will pay off by itself anyway; and you still have enough time for the pressing presentation so it works.
diana_coman: whaack: usually that line goes with "it's the enemy", they don't have that much sophistication.
dorion: diana_coman yeah, that's my thought. Now that I think about it, it makes sense too as a logical next step in the progression from last week. I will admit that I was a bit down last night that I'd missed the deadline I'd set and allowed that to snowball into posting the update for the day as a comment. sometime this morning through the journaling I realized that was treating the plan as a
dorion: striaghtjacket.
dorion: straitjacket*
diana_coman: dorion: aha; and seriously, not the case to be down at all there, don't be silly.
diana_coman: dorion: and do keep up posting those updates for the day as comments, just every day; if anything, probably even more so when feeling down - you might find out in response that there isn't anything to feel down about.
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: in other sads, I can offer as small match to your found masterpiece there, this bit here: "25th Anniversary Edition of Terry Eagleton's classic introduction to literary theory First published in 1983, and revised in 1996 to include material on developments in feminist and cultural theory"
diana_coman: so yeah, I'll stick to Aristotle, thank you.
dorion: diana_coman yeah, thanks, will do.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: William James is as close as North America got to having a philosopher. I thought for a very long time the problem was John Dewey aggressively abusing the pragmatism to Pantsuit that was the problem, but... the problems are deeper. The well was well poisoned no later than Emerson.
BingoBoingo: James' attacks on the "Saint Louis Hegelians" survive in my esteem mostly through my not having the time or inclination to revisit my memories (and my old notebooks not making the luggage cut). Other than that... His prose has "New England Disease" infecting it throughout, and his self-experiments in neuroscience seem to have had lingering effects outside his essays explicitly discussing them.
whaack: diana_coman: right, they don't have the sophistication but even if they did it would be disadvantageous for them to phrase it like that - "it's the enemy" may spark interest while "eh, religious rubish" [ossasepia.com/2019/11/24/some-questions-for-early-mornings/?b=Why+do+they&e=!#select][is a useful phrase to discredit something for young minds]
diana_coman: BingoBoingo: ahaha, that sounds like you'd enjoy writing an article on it really; (and the resulting article sounds like a fun read at the very least).
diana_coman: whaack: thing with the young minds - when young but on their own so teens rather than 7yo - is that they'll naturally swing against the latest thing so not necessarily "won't spark interest"; depends which young you talk about really, it's a matter of place & time, not of "young".
diana_coman: rather: against the *last* thing; towards the "latest" thing.
diana_coman will be back tomorrow.
BingoBoingo: diana_coman: It's one I'll start passively jotting notes for, because it will require a slow bake to get the relevant point. The conclusion as to how I latched on to the fellow's writing is rather concise: "Of the American philosophers fashionable in Southern Illinois University's Department of Philosophy, he was treated most marginally for being the least overtly pantsuit. I found this unfortunate. Still more unfortunate was the
BingoBoingo: narrowness of the discussion space omitting or glossing over better thinkers, not in English."
jfw: I'm contemplating a title for that sales-y presentation of "Monsters Under the Bitcoin Bed", with the theme that the important risks to worry about lie in the darkness of the things you don't know, but become manageable as you learn and face them. This quote and
jfw: Taleb's turkey should make for good anchors

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