Young Hands
ossasepiaeuloratrilemaspykedtrinquetrilema-hanbotagriculturalsupremacy
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Ossasepia



lobbes: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950544 << this sounds good to me
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:22:50 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-08#1950231 << since I've got the botwork already in flight on my end, what do you say you and lobbes tackle making cuntoo into a usable item for mp_en_viaje and diana_coman ?
feedbot: http://bingology.net/2019/last-week-and-some-aspects-of-uruguay-in-review/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Last Week And Some Aspects Of Uruguay In Review
auctionbot: Sell order # 1063: selling items 1, 2 and 4 through 7 on http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bones/snsa_1_nov_2019.txt ; buyer to take possession at his own expense. Heard: 55mn from jfw outbidding asciilifeform. Ending: 2019-11-12 15:43:00.630180 UTC (2 hours 54 mins)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950551 - is this going to diverge then ie there's cuntoo and then there's infectious linux and something else or what? I'm rather confused now as to directions; for that matter and for the forum, there's in principle also jfw's Gales distro if we are at that; I'd rather see the effort focused and coordinated by a single ...
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:25:08 trinque: diana_coman: this could mean getting a list of packages you need running on it, if you're willing.
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 jfw: Gales Linux is a new distribution, not using Portage or other sort of auto-download and dependency resolution; it's got a set of package build scripts I've developed over time based on my own needs
diana_coman: ... person (trinque?)
diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trinque/2019-11-03#1000013 - any eta on this?
ossabot: (trinque) 2019-11-03 trinque: need to do a bit of decrufting before I post these, going to wrap it up tomorrow.
diana_coman: I still don't really have any clear idea what trinque has done or wants to do.
auctionbot: Sell order # 1063 has ENDED: selling items 1, 2 and 4 through 7 on http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bones/snsa_1_nov_2019.txt ; buyer to take possession at his own expense. SOLD to jfw for 55mn ecu. Attn: mp_en_viaje
mp_en_viaje: that's a good price for a coupla boxes huh.
mp_en_viaje: mazel tov
mp_en_viaje: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950564 << my only take-away is that trinque does not want to own the tmsr os. whether this is because ye olde manaloning & etc silly habits of boihood are just that hard to break, or for whatever reason. i can't quite discern, seeing how he talks little and mostly besides the point.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 03:51:20 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950551 - is this going to diverge then ie there's cuntoo and then there's infectious linux and something else or what? I'm rather confused now as to directions; for that matter and for the forum, there's in principle also jfw's Gales distro if we are at that; I'd rather see the effort focused and coordinated by a single ...
mp_en_viaje: in any case, http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950560 << no, nothing could be further from good. you can't go about "doing the best you can" "by yourself" on a nonsense ill defined task like that. what are you trying to turn into, THEM ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 00:14:39 lobbes: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950544 << this sounds good to me
mp_en_viaje: let it be until such a time we can find someone qualified to own it. same place trb is waiting, and so on.
diana_coman: fwiw my take so far is that trinque wants to provide consultancy at most.
mp_en_viaje: whatever that may mean.
mp_en_viaje: anyway, moving on : ave1 what's your lamp shenanigans consist of specifically ? anything substantial enough so that you can retroactively cure your failure to document it such that it might persuasively argue for your qualification to lead this effort ?
mp_en_viaje: pretty threadbare sack at that, huh.
mp_en_viaje: diana_coman, tell me about this gales thing ?
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: from what I talked to jfw so far (he still has to write it up but there's a long list there of write-ups for him to do!), he made his own distribution with his own scripts for package building; he has it in production in that he uses it for his clients afaik but it doesn't seem to scale well the way it is currently
mp_en_viaje: what is "his clients" ?
diana_coman: because any new package one wants would require someone to write the script for it
diana_coman: and there's no X stack either
mp_en_viaje: !!up jfw
deedbot: jfw voiced for 30 minutes.
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: he just went to sleep, lol
mp_en_viaje: oh.
mp_en_viaje: aite, send him over when he wakes, we continue this convo.
diana_coman: yes
mp_en_viaje: i can't imagine how tmsr-os would work such that a package one wants to import wouldn't require some diddling
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: that's the thing, as I told him after my initial talk on this, the trouble is that it seems to be more of a homework exercise than a system to have.
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 diana_coman: but at any rate, what's that Gales Linux exactly and how/in what way different from Cuntoo? where/what are your problems there?
ossabot: (ossasepia) 2019-11-05 diana_coman: but hm, that does sound overall more like your own practice room to know-more-linux than anything else
diana_coman: some diddling is one thing
diana_coman: having to write a full script is another
diana_coman: I'd still have a look at it in more detail.
mp_en_viaje: nfi what that means. echo "echo 'fuck you, world.'" > script.sh produces a script
mp_en_viaje: not a very good one, for instance can't easily turn fuck you, world. into fuck you, world! -- but still, it's a FULL script
diana_coman: heh, I doubt it's *that little*; anyways, I'd certainly rather see it in detail by now, yes.
mp_en_viaje: the problem here is that EVERYTHING -- meaning, ~~~EEEEEEVERYTHING~~~ is rather a "homework" exercise than any kinda serious effort.
mp_en_viaje: because for their sins computers were born after the capacity for serious activity died in the esltard. so it's all comicon all over, "this is some doodle i made please don't hate me" psychoweird.
diana_coman: myeah.
mp_en_viaje: crystal space was made in this manner. internet explorer (all versions) was made in this manner. the original firefox was made in this manner, and then retired in this manner. and everything .
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: re "his clients", they are meant to write up and publish by this Sunday their existing business plan and whatever other related documents they have.
mp_en_viaje: but anyway, no point in pre-discussing his. question stands as http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950585 for a reason and we see later.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 07:08:35 mp_en_viaje: what is "his clients" ?
diana_coman: basically they still need some time to publish now what they didn't all this time and only then we can discuss in more detail really
diana_coman: this is why I didn't mention it earlier really; because there are still some things to sort out first.
diana_coman: mp_en_viaje: re moving cs I had a look in more detail at the situation there: there are 3k lines of autoconf script to start with; this looks for all sorts and takes care of various cases including differences (re where is what) between linux distros
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 11:47:54 mircea_popescu: so i suppose this is the first actionable we unveil here : ima want an estimate on a) how long to divorce dev server from cs ; and b) how long to move client cs on cuntoo.
mp_en_viaje: heck, if transition could be automated...
diana_coman: and moreover, it checks to see which cs deps are available because part of issue with cs is that it doesn't even have a clear list of deps: it depends what plugins and what they want
mp_en_viaje: oh nevermind, we switched to cs.
mp_en_viaje: listen, most of that is ditch-able, because we have little intention to support open-ended "plugin" style architectures.
mp_en_viaje: this was a horrifyingly bad idea of the "oject oriented" crowd, back in the late 90s.
diana_coman: yes but where the fuck does one start from to figure out which parts are actually needed and how they interact?
diana_coman: from cs code itself now or what?
mp_en_viaje: myeah.
mp_en_viaje: i don't imagine we'll be able to ditch autoconf in principle, until many years later, many years AFTER tmsr-os is a thing
diana_coman: that sounds most likely, yes.
diana_coman: the additional thing there being also that some of the deps are really system dependent at least so far so they'd need to be extracted (if possible!) as static libs themselves and bundled up and by the end of it I'll probably end up with tmsr-os I suppose.
mp_en_viaje: i really don't currently see the payoff for putting work into making it static
diana_coman: me neither tbh; so I'll move on then.
mp_en_viaje: myeah.
mircea_popescu: * pdpc/supporter/silver/mircea-popescu :is now your hidden host (set by services.) << fucken nonsense, i never noticed before tey fucked my name.
mircea_popescu: !!invoice jfw 0.055 http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950571
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 05:49:34 auctionbot: Sell order # 1063 has ENDED: selling items 1, 2 and 4 through 7 on http://www.loper-os.org/pub/bones/snsa_1_nov_2019.txt ; buyer to take possession at his own expense. SOLD to jfw for 55mn ecu. Attn: mp_en_viaje
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=CWyk
mircea_popescu: !!deed http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=XoyQ
mircea_popescu: hanbot, ^
deedbot: accepted: 1
trinque: mk, "manage lobbes and spyked to make s.mg an OS" except don't do that at all, and also manalone bois and etc.
mircea_popescu: where's the "don't do all that" ?
hanbot: mircea_popescu huzzah, ty!
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950636 << none of this is actually accurate. for one thing, it wasn't "manage lobbes and spyked to make s.mg an os". it was, "hey, you did some work towards something that's actually needed, namely ~a republican~ os, do you intend to continue or move on ?"
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 09:30:33 trinque: mk, "manage lobbes and spyked to make s.mg an OS" except don't do that at all, and also manalone bois and etc.
mircea_popescu: as an aside, i very much dislike the ambiguous relationship to the republic, along the lines of "check out my son, he got 1st prize in drag racing" / "have you heard what your son's done, he got himself expelled!!!" traditional intramarital passive-agressive idiocy.
mircea_popescu: what, it's only the republic when it pays, otherwise it's "mp's folly" or somesuch ? a lot less of this in the
mircea_popescu: sense of exactly none at all will work splendidly well, and alternatives ain't available.
mircea_popescu: and as to the "bois etc" -- is very well fucking earned. the logs since http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-06#1950066 ie a week ago are sorely missing a "trinque: yeah, I WILL DO THAT". or an equally clear, "no, i won't do that". this is what separates the bois from the men : FIRM committments.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:32:29 mircea_popescu: trinque, suppose spyked's game, and what you have to do is run the two fellows + whatever we can meaningfully accrete through the tmsr-ization of cuntoo.
mircea_popescu: half-ass commitments, plausibly-deniable commitments & the whole charade of alfisms are no longer something i will accept -- for the sore experience of how poorly it works when i do accept them.
mircea_popescu: so try and get off your nonsense horse for the like third time this year, learn how to meaningfully communicate AND DO IT, we might have something here. but in any case the something we will have will NOT be linear extension of the alf shit. i ain't ever again doing anything like that.
mircea_popescu: so no, i won't sign off on these (or any other) guys' waste of time over random nonsense. because the thing that comes immediately after a putative "yes mp, ima do that then" is "make a plan, i want to read this thing", not "you lot, go do what he says". hence http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-06#1950068
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:47:13 mircea_popescu: suppose you talk to both fellas here about the thing, i wanna follow along
mircea_popescu: which, incidentally, you agreed with then --
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:48:38 trinque: totally fine by me
mircea_popescu: and promptly shat on your agreement immediately thereafter.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:26:06 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950494 << this one's an experiment, not ready for public use, but feel free to discuss with me in #trinque
mircea_popescu: da fuck's next, mod6 's patented "let's pass a gpg'd tarball back and forth" ?
mircea_popescu: the point of the republic is for you to look at how stupid you are AND STOP BEING IT.
mircea_popescu: the republic can't be used in ANY OTHER WAY. eminently, it CAN NOT be used as ANY KIND of "how to stay stupid" guide. nor will this fundamental inadherence ever be capable of being turned around, "oh, mp is a meaniehead, stupidity is where it's at". nor ANYTHING other than the intended fucking purpose.
diana_coman: in other lolz, I contacted yet another local dc and the guy went to read my blog so I pointed him to the rundown on it; rather curious now what'll he do, lolz.
mircea_popescu: should be interesting
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2019/11/why-everyone-hates-fetlife/ << Bimbo Club -- Why everyone hates fetlife
jfw: Hello mircea_popescu, I'm here from http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950592
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 07:09:11 mp_en_viaje: aite, send him over when he wakes, we continue this convo.
mircea_popescu: jfw, hey
jfw: howdy
mircea_popescu: so, what's this gales thing ?
jfw: It's a Linux distro I put together, in a couple stages, based on gcc 4.7, musl, busybox userland, exclusively static linking
mircea_popescu: and so what's this customers ?
jfw: dorion and I have a few consulting clients that are learning linux/unix for the first time. We use the distribution ourselves for niches it's able to fill, and we considered it a good learning environment due to avoiding various complexities
mircea_popescu: so it's basically a training tool, as far as that goes, a didactic example
dorion: mircea_popescu I'm present as well, able to fill in where needed.
mircea_popescu: hey there.
jfw: I've found it quite usable for things like trb node, airgapped gpg machine, basic VPS (though no LAMP stack presently)
mircea_popescu: so how do you go about driver support ?
jfw: so, was not originally intended as training tool I think is what I'm saying.
jfw: I've manually done a linux kconfig, as one might on gentoo w/o genkernel
jfw: that kinda driver?
mircea_popescu: traditionally the problem with private distros is that one day someone tries to install int on some new hardware mix-and-match and it dun go
jfw: indeed, we've been restrictive about hardware so far
mircea_popescu: this is what i'm asking, what's the extension process like
jfw: tweaking the 'menuconfig' is what that would look like as far as kernel components
mircea_popescu: so you basically just import w/e drivers redhat or w/e is using ?
jfw: Using stock kernel.org kernel, but sure there's RedHat code in there
mircea_popescu: so as a purely theoretical exericse, what'd gaining x support entail iyo ?
dorion: mircea_popescu we've been using kernel 4.9.95, which is what bvt genesis'd.
jfw: I've built a basic X stack (no 3d accel) on dynamic-linked musl, the biggest uncertainty to me there is whether it'll work static since it's module-oriented
mircea_popescu: dorion, for that reason, or coincidentally ?
mircea_popescu: jfw, i am talking about 3d acceleration specifically.
dorion: coincidentally
mircea_popescu: dorion, interesting how these coincidences work out!
jfw: With proprietary drivers like nvidia?
mircea_popescu: exactly.
jfw: I expect that'd be quite difficult, its libGL is a glibc-based .so
mircea_popescu: but the q is, how would it go
jfw: not sure I follow
mircea_popescu: do i have to throw out gales if i decide to use graphics as a given necessity or don't i
jfw: far as I know you would
mircea_popescu: let me make a comparison here to illuminate.
mircea_popescu: so, someone says, "i want companionship in my life". this is the general problem.
mircea_popescu: man 1 comes and says, "hi, i have a solution to this. i call it 'dog'. it's very companionable."
mircea_popescu: "well... but is it loyal ?" quite very loyal. "how about having children ? i think i want chilndren too".
mircea_popescu: you can't have children with a dog, it is necessarily out of the question.
mircea_popescu: man 2 comes and says "hullo... i have anothe rsolution. i call it 'a virgin'. she's a bitch to get along with, but..."
mircea_popescu: "well... is it loyal ?" not really. "how about having children ?" actually, i think she might be already pregnant.
jfw: lol!
mircea_popescu: in case 1, you know for a fact it won't be possible to have gfx with your thing, it has to be thrown out / redone / the thing that can do gfx can't carry the same name as your thing meaningfully.
mircea_popescu: in case 2, you don't know such for a fact.
mircea_popescu: now, which is it. 1 or 2 ?
jfw: I would think it's 1, as perhaps the driver could be made to work with massive compatibility layers but then the distro wouldn't look much like it does now.
mircea_popescu: so this'd basically be a server thing, by its nature, rather than a general purpose os
mircea_popescu: isn't it awkward to not have lamp ready in that context ?
jfw: Yes, well server or other text-only usage. It is awkward.
mircea_popescu: so are you working on getting lamp for it ?
jfw: Not as yet; first priority was to make it public, see if there was any interest
mircea_popescu: is it public now ?
jfw: no
mircea_popescu: how long has it been a thing at all ?
jfw: since 2017
mircea_popescu: so when you say customers or w/e, is this more of a manner of speaking ?
jfw: they've paid, and I've delivered code. It's not public in the sense of not published on web
mircea_popescu: but is this a registered corp ? or some kind of informal arrangement among friends ?
jfw: more informal
mircea_popescu: and so the customers who've paid and you've delivered code to, were they basically doing what's caled it consulting in the us, ie, outsourced desk jockey to skimp on the pension & benefits plan ? do they think they own the code you've delivered, for instance ?
jfw: as I understand V, he who operates the computer owns the code
mircea_popescu: what, you delviered to said customers a bundle of v-patches /
mircea_popescu: ?
jfw: source tarballs, though there's a TRB too.
mircea_popescu: so then what's v to do with anything
mircea_popescu: i asked you if ~they think~ they own the code, not if god does.
jfw: I see. They don't know enough about the code to meaningfully own it, and afaik they know this.
mircea_popescu: it's not an idle question on my part. there's actually reflected in the very history of the republic as logged, the case of some dude showing up years later to push ridoinculous claims. look for grubbles sometime.
mircea_popescu: so you know, come 2025, is there some durbles gonna show up "oh, gales was really developed by outside help for my corp!!!"
jfw: dorion, do you recall if this is possible based on what we wrote in the consulting agreement?
dorion: mircea_popescu at this point, we have high trust with those it's been shared with. we're young hands in part because we're unclear about to properly approach such problems.
jfw: people can claim things, but the facts as I understand them are that I developed the system on my own, and they did not purchase any ownership in it.
mircea_popescu: dorion, yes, well, i'm not young hands ; and i'll tell you what anyone in a similar position will tell you : code made to oder and not published is generally suspect of being, at least in the view of some party somewhere, their property.
mircea_popescu: not that this generally does anything. but it's also never a bad idea to be plain with people.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile : you ever looked at the cuntoo thing ?
jfw: ty mircea_popescu, underscores the importance of getting it published.
jfw: I looked over trinque's blog posts about it but have not looked inside.
mircea_popescu: how come ?
jfw: well, I already had my thing working and thought myself to have other priorities
jfw: which was all upside-down because showing up here should have been first.
mircea_popescu: counting ave1 s putative item, this promises to be three not-quite-usable, not-so-published identical reworks of the same damned thing.
mircea_popescu: this strikes no one else as eminently wasteful ?
jfw: it strikes me as wasteful.
dorion: mircea_popescu point taken, thank you. jfw reviewing the contract, Gales Linux is described as your original software, but I don't know the legal standing of that claim.
mircea_popescu: if there's one million engineer bois out there, and if the destiny of an engineer boi is to make an os, worth 100k man-hours, and if they never talk to each other, the result will be 7-800k empty boxes containing no os, but three to four figure wasted hours.
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: myeah; the reason for my earlier focused & coordinated effort wish.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 03:51:20 diana_coman: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950551 - is this going to diverge then ie there's cuntoo and then there's infectious linux and something else or what? I'm rather confused now as to directions; for that matter and for the forum, there's in principle also jfw's Gales distro if we are at that; I'd rather see the effort focused and coordinated by a single ...
mircea_popescu: it's literally a recipe for nothingness.
mircea_popescu: kinda why i don't give the first flying fuck how many retard bois "get upset" or whatever, the demons/voices/their mom tells them to choke on chodes.
mircea_popescu: if 1% of 1% of the million can be convinced to be fucking sane, that's already enough people to finish the damn thing already.
jfw: I don't dispute, and am here to work towards sanity & killing stupidity.
dorion: likewise.
mircea_popescu: so what is your commitment towards this thing ? kinda like a fun weekend project, or what is it ?
jfw: I've committed fully to diana_coman's mentorship, a big part of which is because I want to be useful in the republic generally.
mircea_popescu: how long have you two known each other ? with dorion i mean ?
jfw: since 2014
dorion: january 2014
mircea_popescu: well, so would an arrangement whereby you work with other people to develop a workable tmsr os work for you then ?
jfw: My understanding from earlier cuntoo thread is someone needs to step up to *own* the project; to be clear, I doubt I'd be prepared for such a thing right now, but yes it works for me to work with other people.
mircea_popescu: i'm trying to work something out re both ownership and manpower.
mircea_popescu: i wasn't considering either one of you for the former
jfw: good then. Is there a particular level of time commitment you're looking for on the OS project as far as manpower?
mircea_popescu: i was rather gonna ask what you feel comfortable with on the mid term
mircea_popescu: dorion, is your interest rather in the pm side of things ? or are you tryina learn how to code as well ?
jfw: my schedule seems pretty packed at least through the end of 2019, perhaps at that point I could make something like 20 hours per week, will have to consider
mircea_popescu: well, consider and let me know.
mircea_popescu: did i leave anything out ?
jfw: mircea_popescu: nothing coming to mind.
dorion: mircea_popescu I think my strength at present it more on the pm side and communicating to non-technical people why they should take interest in sane computing. Part of my role has been bring people for jfw to teach. With that being said, I am interested in improving my technical skills.
mircea_popescu: i think either line can be pursued, either we attach you to whoever's in charge as an administrative trainee or else you get piecemeal tasks on the tech side.
dorion: right now I'd take the former because I think I'd be more useful in a shorter period of time.
mircea_popescu: there;s oodlebunches of work in a large project that don't involve scrutinizing arcana
mircea_popescu: aite.
mircea_popescu: lobbes, how long till i get to testrun that delivery!!! i'm leaving for the orient in a few weeks you realise!
mircea_popescu: and after that -- is this something that appeals ?
dorion: mircea_popescu thank you.
jfw: I do think that would play more to dorion's strengths & interests though I've certainly appreciated his efforts in learning tech
mircea_popescu: spyked, what sorta time could you commit on a weekly basis, if this tmsr os megaproject actually gets going ?
mircea_popescu: dorion, my pleasuee
dorion: thanks jfw.
mircea_popescu: jfw, hey, it's a free slavery thing, people can do their own part
mircea_popescu: i'm not about to shoehorn him into the wrong hole if i can help it
jfw: hehe. thanks for the time & feedback
mircea_popescu: and both ave1 an' trinque have qs pending, so that completes tonight's session.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, if worst comes to worst i guess ima have you manage this for 'em.
diana_coman: noted.
diana_coman: fwiw I wouldn't shoehorn anyone into more tech; maybe the opposite, if anything.
mircea_popescu: only as a temporary measure if anything. help them build a solid basis upon which to properly disdain the engineers.
diana_coman: I can see that angle, yes.
mircea_popescu: otherwise there's significant risk of taking the maniacs at their word.
diana_coman: there is actually even worse, an initial "reverence" , ugh
diana_coman: at times further fed by the sort of despicable "muh secretz" expert, ugh.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: how would you like to testrun? If you just want to play with the demo connected to my testblog, I can simply bring the bot into #t sometime tonight
lobbes: re tmsr os, so it seems we have manpower waiting to commit; just need someone to commit to ownership
diana_coman: bwahaha that "just need"
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu jfw dorion diana_coman lobbes: thank you for the clean, clear, logs
diana_coman waves at BingoBoingo
mircea_popescu: bvt, once done fixing the kernel rng, you wana join in this fray by the way ?
mircea_popescu: lobbes, well, i dunno, how do you intend to deliver ?
mircea_popescu: conceivablt mocky also shows up, we have a great ole party.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: well, I was under the assumption you'd get a box with a trilema copy, and then I'd stand up bot on said box
lobbes: but I'm open to suggestions
mircea_popescu: ah, so is the ball in my court, am i to get the box ?
diana_coman: it's ok, "we have" the manpower waiting to commit there and all it takes is just someone to commit to ownership.
mircea_popescu: diana_coman, hm ?
diana_coman: mircea_popescu: he seems to just need someone to commit to ownership of the thing he did, lolz
mircea_popescu: lol nah
mircea_popescu: it was the orig spec
diana_coman: I'm just applying his previous great-sentence since it's such a catch-all, lolz.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: I'm good to begin installation if you do get box. I'm still looking into getting proper "echo of blog lines" created, but the rest of the bot is ready
mircea_popescu: ok. as a preliminary step, ima publish old logs on trilema, so they're in the db, so they get transferred automatically.
mircea_popescu: now, when should i stop iyo ?
mircea_popescu: what date, i mean
lobbes: well, I mean the 'new' logs wouldn't start until bot is live anyways.
mircea_popescu: you're not importing your current log ?
mircea_popescu: you hafta, i mean... i haven't been keeping local logs since travelling etc.
lobbes: ah gotcha, okay in that case I'll need to create some log converter
mircea_popescu: converting between what and what ?!
lobbes: well, my logs to the mysql db
mircea_popescu: you ~do~ have the log atm on display no ?
mircea_popescu: yes but how is the bot gonna post going forward ? you already have that converter don't you ?!
lobbes: yeah, I have my logger, which goes back to (/me goes to check)
lobbes: it posts the raw IRC lines to the blog article as it sees them, yes
mircea_popescu: i thought we had a discussion re formats at some point, was gonna bold names and whatnot. was it in my dreams ?
lobbes: no that is functional e.g. http://blog.ericbenevides.com/2019/11/trilema-lobbes-log-for-2019-11-10/
mircea_popescu: right.
lobbes: what I mean, is that output takes input directly from IRC and then does the formatting. Not like it is reading local logs I have saved
mircea_popescu: but what is the difference lol
lobbes: so yeah, not much work but I just need to tweak the 'conversion'
mircea_popescu: and also... fuck. no timestamp at all, i actually came up with thsi shit ?
lobbes: small difference ! : P
lobbes: yeah, no timestamps in orig spec iirc
mircea_popescu: this is stupid, if mp-wp becomes the de facto platform we'll be stuck with timeless logs. ;/
lobbes: but I don't mind adding if you want. This is your thing afterall
mircea_popescu: [hh:mm] prefix plox ?
lobbes: you got it
mircea_popescu: i don't think seconds are meaningful, irc is not resolvable to a second resolution anyway
lobbes: oh oh , you DID add the hourly delimiters tho
mircea_popescu: those i want kept
lobbes: as seen in http://blog.ericbenevides.com/2019/11/trilema-lobbes-log-for-2019-11-07/
lobbes: okay
mircea_popescu: also, <font color=gray>[hh:mm]</font> plox. light colored
lobbes: roger that
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2019/11/mexican-military-plane-carrying-evo-morales-diverted-to-paraguay-after-peru-and-others-closed-airspace/ << Qntra -- Mexican Military Plane Carrying Evo Morales Diverted To Paraguay After Peru And Others Closed Airspace
mircea_popescu: exciting
mircea_popescu: this is really shaping up!
mircea_popescu: BingoBoingo, lol, gonna take him an interview ?
lobbes: Alrighty, good meeting. I've my takeaways of things to knock out. Will keep mircea_popescu apprised
mircea_popescu: cool. the only thing is... i'd like a distant server. where do you currently host ?
BingoBoingo: mircea_popescu: He already became a Northern Hemisphere problem. Also landed in the other hotter, drier (zebu cattle) guay.
mircea_popescu: ah
BingoBoingo: If he was headed this way, Mexican embassy is close but he probably would have just stopped for asylumn here until at least March when the new government swears in
mircea_popescu: lol
lobbes: mircea_popescu, I'm currently using colocation america but the jury is still out on them imo. They are very responsive and accommodating, but I'm only renting a server from them (have not tried actual colocation)
mircea_popescu: mind renting one for trilema.org ?
mircea_popescu: ima pay of course
lobbes: mircea_popescu: I can't see any reasons why not. Sure thing. I'll reach out to them
mircea_popescu: ty.
mircea_popescu: not like you're not gonna be stuck maintaing this forever anyway, so... migh as well :D
BingoBoingo can't recall a single log day with this much signal and so little noise
mircea_popescu: pretty good day!
mircea_popescu: lobbes, so, to be practical here : put the log you have through the works, then we can see ot ?
lobbes: mircea_popescu: ok, is just putting it on my testblog for now acceptable?
mircea_popescu: yuppers
lobbes: kk, that'll be the next item I tackle then
mircea_popescu: works!
BingoBoingo: Aite, bunch deedbot transactions coming through!
BingoBoingo: !!pay jurov 1
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=azVr
BingoBoingo: !!v A1E63C0254EB4673269DDB14077AF5BAB6A0D2D2E4393C8ACDF6000FC551E403
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid jurov 1
BingoBoingo: !!pay mircea_popescu 0.9
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Cz26
mircea_popescu: sweet
BingoBoingo: !!v 0E74CD863EADBE376B0DF82324C514D7FB897E0B9B4FFA571365C62877FE63FE
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid mircea_popescu 0.9
BingoBoingo: !!pay mircea_popescu 0.31271724
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=mw5V
BingoBoingo: !!v 7DE2944FC8C71AD902EF66A75BB5351839C004E0EC148A58DA6770DE77FB85AF
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid mircea_popescu 0.31271724
BingoBoingo: !!pay mircea_popescu 0.0072
BingoBoingo: ^ for Bimbo.club hosting
mircea_popescu: a nice
BingoBoingo: whenever deedbot bakes the response...
BingoBoingo: !!pay mircea_popescu 0.0072
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=dSSW
BingoBoingo: !!v C486F2DD003B5208409BE9BCFB839F4B192C700D348077C65F38685A6D559BBC
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid mircea_popescu 0.0072
BingoBoingo: !!pay billymg 0.00629142
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=mFVT
BingoBoingo: !!v FF3A4C24BE08CABFA72AE36A88698B517A0D971DA68510CE50AD027F635CDA7A
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid billymg 0.00629142
BingoBoingo: !!pay mod6 0.11319466
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=OsTS
BingoBoingo: !!v 4A2F70ED9A16AD710574EE5A220938731C101EDCDACE6EF7F8702D29CE42D057
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid mod6 0.11319466
BingoBoingo: !!pay mats 0.0144
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=K0ot
BingoBoingo: !!v 27A5DAFCB2082AB824EF2C9AA6EF04FAD3BCC028ABB4610F57B950E1A9407077
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid mats 0.0144
BingoBoingo: !!pay lobbes 0.00964994
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=D9NV
BingoBoingo: !!v 1372070B7E0792CA81E7957E4F22737C278FEEE55C668727C9B6CF4C23D52D2D
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid lobbes 0.00964994
BingoBoingo: !!pay diana_coman 0.10491609
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=SPCZ
BingoBoingo: !!v B2D07EEEA73E10D2ECB97F4D5D22AD1710D19E44BEE7035EDB93BB075DAF51A6
BingoBoingo: !!pay dorion 0.01066642
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=xOl-
BingoBoingo: !!v 1897FA44F14713ECC414C3A1282A4D27924BB183F0D4D437B57A3C8589377D39
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid dorion 0.01066642
BingoBoingo: !!pay Mocky 0.0072
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=v3y_
BingoBoingo: !!v 52CBF83585C07B99F1638E3B547715239673F19CDCFA1F2248329E63A477A1E3
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid Mocky 0.0072
BingoBoingo: !!pay cruciform 0.0072
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=N0hA
BingoBoingo: !!v F2865A8BE12B154DC628E5340B147D65D48555BBF67A394EA5E5DBF637E1D048
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid cruciform 0.0072
BingoBoingo: !!pay PeterL 0.0126
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=NNYe
BingoBoingo: !!v FCB6C3BF71DA7B97BD11F24F6EE3130A1B48ADA34787EAFBD06A68D15B790F16
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid PeterL 0.0126
BingoBoingo: !!pay Thimbronion 0.0198
BingoBoingo: !!pay Thimbronion 0.0198
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=EOY5
BingoBoingo: !!v C6ED6C000F9120988018B6DD4562288BF4A16315307C99F6D4DC737FE3222B8C
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid Thimbronion 0.0198
BingoBoingo: !!pay whaack 0.0108
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=o7Yu
BingoBoingo: !!v 3A9EAAF7B26132A92029BF33278474BFC0314ABAEBA9AC4CDC0CA9B57DB78439
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid whaack 0.0108
BingoBoingo: !!pay danielpbarron 0.0126
deedbot: Get your OTP: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=6LEU
BingoBoingo: !!v 8073F56EF1BD0834545CC17FFF365EEA659693C2F989DB53E8E7A9B08E185CE1
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid danielpbarron 0.0126
BingoBoingo: !!ledger
deedbot: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=iT0M
BingoBoingo: !!v B2D07EEEA73E10D2ECB97F4D5D22AD1710D19E44BEE7035EDB93BB075DAF51A6
deedbot: BingoBoingo paid diana_coman 0.10491609
BingoBoingo: ^ This should cover the debts and customer equity. This leaves the auction completion and shareholder equity following from that on the to do list.
BingoBoingo: Unless more claimants come forward by 23:59:59 UTC, November 30th, 2019
feedbot: http://thewhet.net/2019/11/central-european-retrospective-frague/ << The Whet -- Central European Retrospective: Frague
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950579 << what exactly do you think that word means?
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 10:51:30 diana_coman: fwiw my take so far is that trinque wants to provide consultancy at most.
trinque: and why are you soviets so damned allergic to structuring things *like a business*
mircea_popescu: if you're asking me, i think it means willing to do work at arm's length.
mircea_popescu: and i dunno what the gap is! make it plain, what is it, what's the difference between whatever this is and whatever a business'd be, an' pinpoint the allergy neh ?
trinque: I came in offering to mentor both lobbes and spyked in starting a business, and this is "omg, faggot, do actual work" ?
trinque: and yes, I'm not doing the monastic thing. I went on about this ad nauseum with much rustling of jimmies.
mircea_popescu: i don't think we're talking on the same basis here. i dunno how your "omg, faggot, do actual work" maps on the actual occurence.
trinque: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950644 << the THAT is ill defined.
snsabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 13:51:42 mircea_popescu: and as to the "bois etc" -- is very well fucking earned. the logs since http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-06#1950066 ie a week ago are sorely missing a "trinque: yeah, I WILL DO THAT". or an equally clear, "no, i won't do that". this is what separates the bois from the men : FIRM committments.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-06 23:32:29 mircea_popescu: trinque, suppose spyked's game, and what you have to do is run the two fellows + whatever we can meaningfully accrete through the tmsr-ization of cuntoo.
mircea_popescu: dunno how "much rustling of jimmie" maps on historical account.
trinque: the last thing I said on teh subj is for those two gents to interview their potential customer and find out what they want, and report it to me
mircea_popescu: trinque, so where did you say "i will do that" ?
mircea_popescu: link ?
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950544 << here and down, and they agreed, and I have not heard from them in #trinque , is where we stand.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:22:50 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-08#1950231 << since I've got the botwork already in flight on my end, what do you say you and lobbes tackle making cuntoo into a usable item for mp_en_viaje and diana_coman ?
mircea_popescu: anyways. all jobs are perpetually ill defined. that's why they need doing. if they were well defined they also would have been done, past tense.
trinque: yes but they don't remain ill defined, lest years be spent toiling in the wrong direction, or circles.
trinque: I am not a lazy man.
mircea_popescu: trinque, there's large gaps between what's actually said and what you construe what's said to mean on the uptake ; and there's similarily large gaps between what you actually say and what you expect it to be taken as, on the rebound.
mircea_popescu: i dun think you're a lazy man. currently i think you grew up in a house with a lot of door slamming as a rhetorical device, but that's really neither here nor there.
mircea_popescu: now, as to the putative customer approach : i dun specifically want to make a new os for every single app we come up with. i'd like to make one and be done with it, such that minigame can use it, trb can use it, everyone can fucking use it.
trinque: I didn't say sell the OS.
mircea_popescu: well so take a minute and say what you meant to say.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950667 << this dude is literally taking the approach I'm prescribing.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 16:59:38 jfw: dorion and I have a few consulting clients that are learning linux/unix for the first time. We use the distribution ourselves for niches it's able to fill, and we considered it a good learning environment due to avoiding various complexities
mircea_popescu: explicity an' at its own length
trinque: heh, where's the quote where you say if you're worth a shit, being poor just kinda brushes off.
mircea_popescu: i dunno, like half of trilema
trinque: it is hard from where I sit to reconcile this "the work must be done whatever the cost" with any sense of survivability. so one says either the latter doesn't matter, or one's to fill that gap himself.
trinque: if it doesn't matter, one needs less self-involved shits than myself.
mircea_popescu: or one could just you know, chip at it and signal with others to help.
trinque: if it does, I'm gonna keep going "what the hell's the plan for money coming *in*"
trinque 's last signal reads " diana_coman, pls to tell me what the hell you intend to do with this thing"
mircea_popescu: oh it did ?!
mircea_popescu: there's two portions current minigame strat needs from os. there's a server os, which has to be static-linkable. there's a client os, which has to be portable and support gfx.
mircea_popescu: ideally these share as much of a trunk as possible.
trinque: obviously the latter is the ratfuck, multiplied if ya don't specify hardware.
trinque: I'm not saying you should, just pointing at it
mircea_popescu: well, "portable", aka everything
mircea_popescu: but, yes.
trinque: considered statically compiling the whole game, and letting the kids run wherever, or not desirable?
mircea_popescu: statically compiling graphic stack is currently impossible.
mircea_popescu: it's actually the broken glass we're trying to extract through all this process.
trinque: yep, just enumerating. what about bundling the necessary libs alongside. afaik this is what steam does, static linking for idiots
mircea_popescu: steam does not work.
mircea_popescu: i don't even mean this in any kind of theoretical sense, i've been testing it.
mircea_popescu: it's a crapshoot.
mircea_popescu: it will half the time "upgrade" itself into unrecoverable broken state.
mircea_popescu: ie, at any given moment some significant percentage of hw configs are unsupportable, and there's ~no way to predict which.
trinque: I wasn't proposing using actual steam, but the approach, which probably would still suffer from what you say.
mircea_popescu: if i knew of something giving a leg to stand on i'd push it, but atm got nothing there, so yeah
trinque: who is the user?
trinque: this is their first exposure to an adult operating system?
mircea_popescu: well, vidya right
trinque: so then oldschool boot cd, and you can play from it, and you can install if you want?
mircea_popescu: the idea is to construct funel towards republic, so he needn't be dumb. but he might be new
mircea_popescu: trinque, install ~on what~
mircea_popescu: i have no problem with "Boot from it". but it hasta boot. which... is not trivial, given one wants to support 3d gfx.
trinque: mhm, wads of firmware and drivers needed depending on gpu
trinque: efi complicating the shit out of things these days
mircea_popescu: and no static linkage in any case.
trinque: taken to the sad extreme, one could argue to target the browser
mircea_popescu: stupid idea. you just get more of the same crap.
mircea_popescu: the notion browsers are portable is a lot like the notion women are whores.
trinque: I'm just marking off the limits here
mircea_popescu: ~not if they can help it~
trinque: so the target is a tower of some kind a sharp kid might have, or be able to build
trinque: or maybe a laptop he has
trinque: so this is nvidia, radeon, and intel drivers
mircea_popescu: in fairness, game as it stands works fine w/o acceleration anyways. so it's a lot more portable in practice than the theoretical extension.
trinque: walking through the list of firmware one needs for these isn't insurmountable. I've got a radeon box sitting here that runs cuntoo
mircea_popescu: trinque, i agree ; it just needs the doing.
trinque: I think it's beneficial to have the thing able to run as a livecd, with option to install.
trinque: the cuntoo bootstrapper I produced was misery in that it either produced a booting drive, or fuck you peasant, learn moar.
trinque: what is it that would even be persisted to the disk?
trinque: gpg keys? assuming the kid gpgs on same machine
mircea_popescu: lots would persist on the disk. keys, configs, and the data cache.
mircea_popescu: potentially gbs
trinque: k, so not much fun to be had in the livecd.
trinque: meaning that you can't play in there, just install
mircea_popescu: the idea is that the client runs on its own responsibility, asks server for all items it dun have.
mircea_popescu: so it's a sort of perma-bootstrapper of the game
trinque: k, so this is little else than creating a signed tarball of the cuntoo bootstrapper's output, and building a livecd/usb that can unpack that item onto a fresh system, bundled with some driver firmware and a try-all-modules kernel.
trinque: this I am willing to actively manage spyked and lobbes to produce, if they will. others also may apply.
mircea_popescu: not necessarily. a dvd is what, coupla gb. a recent client could just pack its data disk there.
mircea_popescu: if you want newer gfx, install and remake dvd
mircea_popescu: if you don't care, play from dvd
trinque: if that's possible, it opens up kids throwing the thing into w/e school computer, like we used to do with quake back in the day.
mircea_popescu: sure.
trinque: same image in both cases, just one's readonly root
mircea_popescu: i don't see why it wouldn't be possible. doesn't work atm, but yes.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950552 << this ftr was not some kind of alfian goalpost-moving.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:26:06 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950494 << this one's an experiment, not ready for public use, but feel free to discuss with me in #trinque
mircea_popescu: oh ? cuz it sounded just like it
trinque: I am working on that other item, and I was telling the guys *not* to worry about it for now.
trinque: it doesn't supplant using gentoo any time soon.
trinque: it's a derivative of something I've used in embedded machines for a long time, and I'm seeing if it can be made into an adult OS
mircea_popescu: aite
trinque: if so, it'll have human-sized readable patches for every item running.
trinque: but it's just not further than speculative, and I don't want people chasing after it
trinque: also fuck not acting because tomorrow there'll be even better icecream
mircea_popescu: yes, well, with all that context a whole different thing!
trinque: lobbes and/or spyked: you around?
trinque: I'd like to approach this in phases, documentation preceding every phase's work product.
trinque: I'd like to chat before any of this, and come to an agreement on how we work together
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-11#1950546 << this stands, and what I meant wasn't the bastardized american version, where you feed the client shit til he notices.
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-11 20:24:11 trinque: I'm thinking you and he could turn this into a proper consulting gig if they like what you produce, and I'm happy to manage / advise such an endeavor.
mircea_popescu: meanwhile the new kids got sucked into this also.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-11-12#1950667 << seems like there's a lot of overlap, yes
ossabot: Logged on 2019-11-12 16:59:38 jfw: dorion and I have a few consulting clients that are learning linux/unix for the first time. We use the distribution ourselves for niches it's able to fill, and we considered it a good learning environment due to avoiding various complexities
trinque: sounds like not very sophisticated clients, not that I'm throwing shade at your hustle jfw
mircea_popescu: potentially there's a good half dozen hands here, if ave1 & bvt can be seduced into it.
trinque strains, yet tits do not erupt
lobbes: trinque: I am around (and have been following the conversation)
trinque: more the merrier, to a point. so long as it's *directed* effort
mircea_popescu: right. directed an' structured an' documented and os on
trinque: lobbes: do you have a machine with a decent GPU?
lobbes: just to be clear, my I believe role in this thing (at least to start) should be at the bottom of the totem pole. I have much to learn still but am willing to work. Though I will need management on what exactly to work on. I don't think I even could have conducted the client interviews on the level trinque (or jfw, for that matter) did. I simply do not have enough experience yet
lobbes: trinque: I might have one. How do I determine decency of gpu in this context?
mircea_popescu: plus i don't remember you throwing a hissy fit for no apparent reason
trinque: lobbes: if you have that GPU someone else will also, eh?
lobbes: trinque: I'm not following you
trinque: w/e GPU you have is fine. if it ends up not being fine, I'll just send you one.
lobbes: kk, works well enough for me
lobbes: and ty btw, for this opportunity
lobbes: trinque: I also want to make sure you know that I still have some items to knock out this month before I can devote full focus, but starting in December I should be ready to roll
lobbes: Not that I can't start chewing on things early, of course
trinque: I don't want to burn anything out. I think it's upon me to specify this thing, receive feedback, and then delegate tasks.
trinque: *burn anyone
lobbes: sounds reasonable
trinque: but I want to know who wants to eat the thing with me, and start talking to them on a regular basis.
trinque: spyked: what about you, have a usable GPU?
trinque: !!v E08EF01B1D517D3DE9D9A8C0688CC0EBBAE8B67C16F81B8ACE5941B4EEABC504
deedbot: trinque rated lobbes 1 << cuntooist
trinque: ^ not being frivolous here.
trinque: lobbes: starting when in december?
mircea_popescu: the first lol, i'm not dragging the whole mp-wp logger on forever.
lobbes: ^ what he said
lobbes: I'm aiming to get remainder of mp-wp logger complete in under two weeks. Then rest of Nov I want to tidy up auctionbot. So Dec 1st should be a good starting point for me
mircea_popescu: lobbes, http://trilema.com/2019/proper-html-linking-the-crisis-the-solution-the-resolution-conclusion/#comment-132249 << in other lulz.
lobbes: mircea_popescu: nice bug findin'. I'll make sure it is rolled into the patch

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