Young Hands
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Ossasepia



mod6: billymg: Hi, it wasn't included because there was an objection (i'll have to dig the logs for it) to it being included (trinque) because it includes a class that was deemed unnecessary.
mod6: mircea_popescu: No Sir, not waiting you or anyone out.
mod6: There was also the entire question of not putting it in, as it was discussed that the wallet should be cleaved from the rest of the architecture itself -- and further work on wallet related things should wait.
mod6: That's what I've had loaded in my head, anyway.
mod6: Let me see if I can dig up trinque's objection here quick.
mod6: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-10-13#1724987
snsabot: Logged on 2017-10-13 11:32:29 trinque: the introduction of new classes should be perma-banned
mod6: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-14#1714239
mod6: Anyway, I'm open to another discussion around the privkey tools vpatch. For what it's worth, I think TRB sorely needs it. But again, the whole discussion about the wallet.
mod6: I am also aware of the wallet work that has been on-going in python by gbw. Maybe this gets folded into that?
mod6: Also, mircea_popescu, I do have the the entire trb tree (with exception of privkey_tools) signed and ready to go in Keccak. Has been since last January. I havne't been able to find a Lord who will double check my work though.
mod6: http://blog.mod6.net/2019/01/trb-keccak-regrind/
mod6: Upon resoltion of the privkey_tools question, will happily add it to the current archive of signed Keccak TRB Vptaches.
dorion: hey mod6, how's life since quitting your old 9-5 ?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-09-30 14:06:42 mod6: Hai all, it's been a pretty intense month - lot going on here. I've left my 9-5 job!
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957153 - the online component is in python, the offline component is in Scheme.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 00:20:48 mod6: I am also aware of the wallet work that has been on-going in python by gbw. Maybe this gets folded into that?
mod6: dorion: ah, hrm. it's had its ups and downs.
mod6: thx, for denoting the offline component in scheme.
mircea_popescu: mod6, why are you looking for a lord to "doubleckeck your work" ~outside~ of the process through which this is done here ?
mircea_popescu: stop putting yourself in the way of progress, the only thing you'll get out of it is your own mangled body.
mircea_popescu: no fucking clue why your ferrocraneum manages to conceal from you the plain obviousness of this ; no fucking idea what you make of all the other mangled bodies of like idiots scattered about, nor of the actual pain you feel and have been feeling.
mircea_popescu: but it's a fact : stop trying to put yourself in the way, it will not stop anything and it will fuck you iup.
mircea_popescu: "waiting to fo into keccak". there's no fucking waiting. do it, do it now, and stop with the infantile bullshit. the republic isn't optional, nor is it trying to persuade the infant in you.
mod6: mircea_popescu: Ok, I have published my trb keccak regrind on the bitcoin.foundation site. It comes with the following: 1. Update to original genesis.vpatch - removes the UTF charater. 2. Added mod6_privkey_tools.vpatch (unchanged fro the original ML posting by myself.) 3. A manifest file. 4. I've also updated the howto document on thebitcoin.foundation.
mod6: The howto document now requires that you have Ada on your environment before you build, and the builder will also need to build starter_v_2 first, before any other steps are to be completed.
mod6: I won't be back around until later today, but i'll check back in later.
feedbot: http://bimbo.club/2020/01/exposition-iii/ << Bimbo Club -- Exposition III.
dorion: mircea_popescu I hope I've not waited too long, but I'm ready to ask you about the face to face structure jfw and I started with for jwrd.
dorion: To provide context, the main reason we started with this is because Gales as an environment is pure text, so the command line must be used. For the most part, the people we're prospecting don't have command line experience.
dorion: At the start, basics like remembering where spaces go in command syntax and the difference between slashes and dashes can trip them up. Thus, sitting next to them a) gives them some assurance, b) allows the instructor's feedback loop to be shortened because he sees exactly where the mistake is being made and c) makes keeping the sessions within 90 minutes more feasible.
dorion: The lectures and course materials - we provide both digital and hard copy resources - were built around this structure. We've provided hard copies of lectures/in class exerices and homework, in part because they've typically never used a text editor (though vimtutor is part of the early homework) and pencil and paper brings them back to a more familiar learning modality.
dorion: We build them up from an environment they're used to, but also heavily stress practice of the commands and text editor.
dorion: With that being said, physical presence limits us, both from clients we can work with and, as we grow, instructors we can onboard, e.g. spyked.
dorion: One middleground we've looked at pivoting to is using a server with tmux session sharing combined with a voice or video call. That will provide a "classroom" experience for both instructor and student from the comfort/convenience of the home office.
dorion: On top of that we plan to move IRC from around session 20, where it was with the first batch, to somewhere between sessions 5-10 and make that the primary, or ideally only, communication channel.
dorion: Panama does have a more old school, meet in person culture, so we see face to face still as a good option for building long-term relationships, e.g. makes going for a drink after class that much easier, but cutting the number in half rather than the full 25.
dorion: Does this shift make sense to you ? Or is it still silly in ways I'm not seeing ?
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957161 - I see. perhaps writing some articles about the process on your blog would mitigate the downs and amplify the ups ?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 02:07:46 mod6: dorion: ah, hrm. it's had its ups and downs.
dorion: mod6 you see yourself managing to keep yourself free of 9-5 longer term ?
dorion: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957169 - did you see jfw's keksum ?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 13:14:56 mod6: The howto document now requires that you have Ada on your environment before you build, and the builder will also need to build starter_v_2 first, before any other steps are to be completed.
dorion: (I'm not saying one's better than the other, just pointing that it exists.)
feedbot: http://qntra.net/2020/01/royal-yachting-association-discovers-their-database-was-leaked-in-2015/ << Qntra -- "Royal Yachting Association" Discovers Their Database Was Leaked In 2015!
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957173 - regarding the "because" there: there was perhaps a degree of teaching it because we'd built it, but I see it more the other way - a text-only Linux being a good choice for the job specifically because it doesn't have the GUI crutch and CLI illiteracy is one of the bigger barriers that otherwise intelligent people face to using serious
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 18:39:58 dorion: To provide context, the main reason we started with this is because Gales as an environment is pure text, so the command line must be used. For the most part, the people we're prospecting don't have command line experience.
jfw: computing tools.
jfw acknowledges he's a ways behind here, will try to find a balance between underinformed and overdelayed responses...
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955683 - this is not necessarily the case though, no? lock in correspondent addresses up front, or gpg keys to verify delivery instructions offline, or send address by courier, whatever. Airgap does not solve all problems, obviously. Shooting yourself in the foot is not the gunsmith's fault is it?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:36:14 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955615 << so then your inputs to the process are haxed, and you go diligently dispatch btc to 1HaxFuckYou
jfw: trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955688 - do I understand this claim as: if A assists B to use known-bad software X as opposed to known-worse software Y, while clearly stating the risk, A is then to blame for what harm may befall B?
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-18 22:37:41 trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955617 << it solves only the pretense of being "not to blame" while still being very much to blame
jfw: AFAIK even the ol' USA has not quite reached the point where you're still liable even if you put the "warning: hot coffee is hot" warning on the hot coffee
jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-19#1955775 - thanks, fixed. Indeed I recognized "borne" as correct once pointed out but then "wait, so what's the infinitive of born if it's not about the bearing?!"
ossabot: Logged on 2019-12-19 02:04:30 mp_en_viaje: i mean uh. the word's the same, ye olde beran, but the participle / past tense of it is "borne" in all cases when you're not talking of actual birth.
dorion: fyi, I'm currently making a big photo blog of st. vincent, and on a deadline.
dorion meant to pm that to jfw, but no matter.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957149 << really curious over here what class needed to be introduced to do anything with privkeys
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 00:16:07 mod6: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-10-13#1724987
snsabot: Logged on 2017-10-13 11:32:29 trinque: the introduction of new classes should be perma-banned
trinque: and ftr my word is not law. if you were sane you'd have said "hey trinque, I am thinking of introducing this class" and arguing with me why it should be introduced.
trinque: and I'd have said "mod6 what the fuck, there are already classes for keys" and then by god, we'd have babby's first culture brewing by lunch
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957193 << you miss my point, which is not "and therefore never do things"
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 20:13:36 jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955683 - this is not necessarily the case though, no? lock in correspondent addresses up front, or gpg keys to verify delivery instructions offline, or send address by courier, whatever. Airgap does not solve all problems, obviously. Shooting yourself in the foot is not the gunsmith's fault is it?
trinque: it's that "oh god linux is a fractal hellscape so I will airgap" solves some problems, and by way of cosmic fact not all
trinque: and we with the OS project must solve more of the latter.
trinque: you must hear me with the series pounding on the fact that "found object, labelled" is not enough.
jfw: Agreed then.
trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957195 << hm where's the line from mircea_popescu about the bum in the street screaming at you to get off HIS corner having more patriotism than "you've" ever had
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 20:23:06 jfw: trinque: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2019-12-18#1955688 - do I understand this claim as: if A assists B to use known-bad software X as opposed to known-worse software Y, while clearly stating the risk, A is then to blame for what harm may befall B?
trinque: yes, you own it or you don't, and we don't get to put fig-leaves over our lack of ownership
trinque: or we're back in socialist hell where ownership is "my cubicle"
jfw: I liked your description of ownership in that series too btw.
mircea_popescu: trinque, i dunno, but it sounds just like something i said
mircea_popescu: mod6, alright then
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957172 << too long for what lol, i'm still around. now, what are you asking me ?
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 18:39:46 dorion: mircea_popescu I hope I've not waited too long, but I'm ready to ask you about the face to face structure jfw and I started with for jwrd.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957178 << i do not believe this is a sane worldview.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 18:42:14 dorion: One middleground we've looked at pivoting to is using a server with tmux session sharing combined with a voice or video call. That will provide a "classroom" experience for both instructor and student from the comfort/convenience of the home office.
mircea_popescu: meh, wrong click.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957177 << i do not believe this is a sane worldview.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 18:41:37 dorion: With that being said, physical presence limits us, both from clients we can work with and, as we grow, instructors we can onboard, e.g. spyked.
mircea_popescu: physical presence also limits me wrt to the sluts i can fuck, both in regards to variety (for instance, the typical redditard chronical masturbator "has sex" with a much greater variety of women that never heard of him) and in regards to whatever the fuck i can catch from them. like say the common cold, the fewer actual women you physically meet, the less variety of colds you'll get. obviously the subway is RIGHT OUT!!!
mircea_popescu: yet what sort of fucking is that, ~if she's not even there~ ?
mircea_popescu: honestly, i believe the being together part is actually more important than the "teaching linux" or "sticking it in her" or "playing with stocks and wheels" and whatnot.
mircea_popescu: yet look at it in the cold, blue light of logic : between these three categories, (men and women in an atomic soup), (men jacking off in front of the computer to images of women it presents), (women cavorting naked in man's livingroom) and these three categories, (noobs and experts in an atomic soup), (noobs wanking on reddit to images of experts it presents), (experts teaching noob computers in noob's livingroom) the rela
mircea_popescu: tionship is direct!
mircea_popescu: there's no single kink, it's all straight as rain.
mircea_popescu: so boggle with me at the sheer insanity of unleashed abstraction : the moment you put it in human frame, the moment you tie it down to the sanity engine of the brain, the part that ~actually~ works of it, having been honed into working through endless millenia of practice, having its capacity to distinguish right from wrong and correct from dumb evolved into existence, suddenly it's all fucking self-obvious.
mircea_popescu: but if you don't do that, "we don't know how to distinguish", "all abstractions are in principle just as good as any others" and so on.
mircea_popescu: if instead of taking actual women to actual cages and stocks i joined the choir invisible, and "did" TWICE, whatever, ten thousand times "as many", except you know, "not physically" to use an euphemism... woudl you be impressed with how much i've progressed ? would i be ten thiousand times better if instead of being real i collapsed into wholly imaginaey ?
mircea_popescu: so my proposal is rather to look at the matter not as much as you're in the business of TEACHING LINUX (while getting together), but in the business of GETTING TOGETHER (while for instance teaching linux, or gales, or bitcoin, or whatever is needed)
mircea_popescu: build it around the relationship, their building, their lifecycle, their needs. do not build it around the imaginary "point", that isn't.
mircea_popescu: look at the expansion angle : if ten days after you've sat down, dude says, "um... so my whole business is fucked by this data conversion problem", as they ALL FUCKING ARE, you must have lived under a rock somewhere if you believe "western world" "business" in its daily practice at the office is ANYTHING but trying to deal with data formats
mircea_popescu: ask everyone, from obscure shitholistan small lawyers to lobbes or nicoleci or anyone you meet, they can tell you.
mircea_popescu: what will you say ? "sorry, we gales only" ? as opposed to "yes dood, here, ten lines of awk. we'll go through what it does next we meet" ? hm ?
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957178 << not like it's forbidden or anything. i'm not saying you should marry all these people or anything like that. i think the way of looking at it is the central problem, once that's well anchored the specific ways you go about it in a circumstance or another's you know, a matter of circumstance.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 18:42:14 dorion: One middleground we've looked at pivoting to is using a server with tmux session sharing combined with a voice or video call. That will provide a "classroom" experience for both instructor and student from the comfort/convenience of the home office.
mircea_popescu: i don't think there's a mandatory time where you must irc, anymore than i think there's a mandatory time when eg people from #ossasepia must trilema or anything.
mircea_popescu: obviously to a large degree you'll have to support your people, so you'll be working with their things to begin transitioning to sane things as a matter of necessity.
mircea_popescu: the fundamental problems are that cli-iliteracy is a serious, life-changing disability. in terms of severity, blindness compares, deafness does not. obviously the afflicted are scarcely aware, but this doesn't mean they're not afflicted.
mircea_popescu: whole "work-years", entire "departments" could readily be replaced by you know, half hour's worth of sed ; they aren't because us corporatelandia mostly exists as makework, to create the illusion for millions of ambitious derps that they're "doing something" lest they take to the streets and start throwing rocks. nevertheless, even if the cutting legs is systematically needed in socialism, to crate the sort of helpless vat
mircea_popescu: -people it can thrive amongst, it's still personally disabling.
mircea_popescu: so you know, as far as the life prospects, the future evolution, however you will name the sum-total potential of a person's existence, understanding how to command line is more important than meeting their father. it'll certaily do a lot for them, and it certainly CAN do way the fuck more for them.
mircea_popescu: gales or no gales, the man who can't cat | grep is closer to a boy than any other man.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957189 << quite so. using tools, ~thinking in ways which make their activity amenable to useful tools~ and so on.
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 19:54:12 jfw: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957173 - regarding the "because" there: there was perhaps a degree of teaching it because we'd built it, but I see it more the other way - a text-only Linux being a good choice for the job specifically because it doesn't have the GUI crutch and CLI illiteracy is one of the bigger barriers that otherwise intelligent people face to using serious
mircea_popescu: the difference between the subsistence hunter and the instagram foodie isn't merely that the subsistence hunter doesn't have marble countertops or cuisinarts. a point readily verified by giving him some.
mircea_popescu: http://logs.ossasepia.com/log/trilema/2020-01-24#1957197 << indeed it has ; look into "strict liability" sometime
ossabot: Logged on 2020-01-24 20:24:16 jfw: AFAIK even the ol' USA has not quite reached the point where you're still liable even if you put the "warning: hot coffee is hot" warning on the hot coffee
mircea_popescu: oh for chrissakes.

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